Curse

Tortoise · Nov 22, 2006, 12:02 AM // 00:02

Yes... I completely agree. GW is going to die because some people can't deal with enemies that kite. gg to the average GW player.

Seriously: the only legitimate complaint about the AI right now is the problem with 'perma-agro'.

Str0b0 · Nov 22, 2006, 12:20 AM // 00:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by FalconDance

It also appears I am one of the very few fortunate ones who does not have major issues with the "AI problem". Bad guys get hurt = bad guys run for their lives. What is unrealistic about that -- that they're smarter than most human characters? People are complaining because there is an occasional glitch in that the foe senses you and attacks from farther than the aggro bubble. Hmmm. Again, maybe they're just smarter than the human player. If you know that is a possibility, then how about being a little more aware and careful? Oh, but wait a minute. Then you'd have less to whine about. My bad.

I don't think it is whining to point out a problem. No one is complaining about the chicken run code. They have been doing that for a hot minute now. It's all the other inconsistencies. As for the point of realism though I have two counters. One, this is a fantasy game so realism can pretty much be thrown out the window. Two, the AI is supposed to be significantly less skilled than the players for one reason only. Monsters outnumber any party in any area significantly. They aren't supposed to be clued in on the tactics utilized by players. A comparable and more manageable level of challenge could be achieved by simply making more balanced mobs instead of tweaking the AI to the sadistic degree it has been tweaked.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tortoise

Yes... I completely agree. GW is going to die because some people can't deal with enemies that kite. gg to the average GW player.

Seriously: the only legitimate complaint about the AI right now is the problem with 'perma-agro'.

The average player is the core of the market, hence the qualifier average. Ergo, if the average player dislikes that then it should be removed in order to better serve their core market. It's as simple as that. That's just good business. You don't cater to niche's within your market. If you lose 5% of sales because you removed a feature that only that 5% liked then so be it, you still have the other 95% plus new sales which will probably end up falling into the same split with 5% not liking the game and the other 95% loving it.

Cyril Aspect · Nov 22, 2006, 12:32 AM // 00:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Str0b0

the AI is supposed to be significantly less skilled than the players for one reason only. Monsters outnumber any party in any area significantly. They aren't supposed to be clued in on the tactics utilized by players. A comparable and more manageable level of challenge could be achieved by simply making more balanced mobs instead of tweaking the AI to the sadistic degree it has been tweaked.

Ok thats just uninformed, the mobs are varied and balanced especially in factions but also in NF. do you often see mobs which are all monks or somehtign that you think could be improved? Tactics from the AI? They aren't that much smarter. with very little effort I have been rolling through NF and I don't spend muhc time in pve nor do I consider my builds very carefully. What sadistic level are we talking about I mena I went as a caster through the game twice with no trouble.

and I'm begging those of you who think its too hard to just stop pull back for a second. I may personally dislike you for the tone of your writing here but I still want you to get enjoyment from the game as I do.

Just think for a second about what you do and why you might find it harder post AI. I know you can find other ways to farm as I have and maybe you'll find that you only need to tweak one little thing to go back to dominating the Mobs. I feel strongly all of your are smarter than the mobs. truly I do.

~Cyril

Str0b0 · Nov 22, 2006, 12:39 AM // 00:39

It's not about farming it's about gameplay. Prior to the AI update I had no problem whatsoever cruising through the game. I have a knack for synergistic builds and finding synergies between skills. Post AI I can't even bring myself to bother trying to advance any further in Nightfall because the AI is frustrating.( mass aggro, insanely long chicken runs, long distance aggro, rez shrine camping, need I go on?) What it comes down to though, in the end, is that people who are pleased or indifferent to the AI change are in the minority and unfortunately you can't, or at least shouldn't, cater to a minority in a business model. You should always cater to your majority customers.

Cyril Aspect · Nov 22, 2006, 12:54 AM // 00:54

I don't know where your evidence for who is the minority or majority comes from, I know I personally don't have statistics for these things since they are almost impossible to collect.

I don't see these problems you just listed very often if at all. I've never been agroed from beyond my bubble. As a former runner I find nightfall has no too long agro issues in the large term I think once they chased me too far but i still lost them.

what I'm trying to show here is that its all anecdotal everyhting people are saying is either BS or personal experience and if our two experiences are so wildly different then you are out of line assuming and calling upon anet for changes based merely upon what you find.

try looking up go for the eyes. that build without any real effort can get you to near the end game.

~cyril

KESKI · Nov 22, 2006, 01:10 AM // 01:10

?? So people want to be a hero by killing boar??(south park anyone??)
oh, where are you my dragon slaying heros=P

The bad always out number the good guys, isnt this what make fantasy hero admirable??
Most of the "Evil" have great wisdom, for god sake they own human to the poin human seek mirical and heros.
And yes, I am talking fantasy stories=P
I dont know about you, but I havent read any child kicking, gang left behind hero yet.(might be a good idea someone start one=P fresh market)

Again, I am not saying the current ai is good, I still want the "every race have different AI". The current bug brain AI isnt something to brag about. But I do view from "eating too much and chock to death" to "this steak is too big for me, I will be back later" as an improve. Not a great one, but it is=P I personaly view the A-Net dev as the final boss of GW. I dont know, asking for easier AI sound like asking the opponent to go easy on you in a card game.

And seriously, why cant people just speak for themselves?? Feel boneless with out the word "majority" behind you?? come on, if you want to use the word, do a poll=P

Ninna · Nov 22, 2006, 01:12 AM // 01:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilebill

Monthly listing on IGN for October puts GW Nightfall at number 11 in sales, calling this "particularly impressive" sales performance for Nightfall since Nightfall was released on the 27th, nearly at the end of the month .. rankings from a market research firm, the NPD Group.

*weekly* listing, from the same NPD group, put GW at #5 despite only 3 days of sales

NPD game sales figures for Oct 22 - Oct 28
http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/guild...ml?sid=6161500

Str0b0 · Nov 22, 2006, 01:14 AM // 01:14

It's not a matter of gathering hard data. I don't need hard data to draw the conclusion that a simple majority doesn't like the AI. It's a matter of observation. How many threads about AI have been started? How many have been negative? Do you honestly think those threads are confined to just this board? If each board revolving around Guild Wars accounts for an average cross section of the GuildWars population, and it conceivably can and should, then you can extrapolate a majority from just reading the posts. The 95% and 5% were just arbitrary numbers to demonstrate the futility of catering to a minority market within your consumer base. Whether you see the problems or not doesn't mean they don't exist unless you subscribe to the good old ostrich theory of reality, that being if I can't see it it doesn't exist and therefore can't hurt me. What does matter, and what should provide you with even more evidence, is that a number of people have experienced these problems and have spoken out about them. So based solely on your experience you are prepared to discount all the other people who have experienced these same issues? That's a faulty argument right there. Whether you have experienced these issues personally is immaterial, they exist, they have been experienced by many other people,and they are a problem.

There is also a principle known as statistical representation. I'm sure you've heard a dumbed down version of it in which if one person actually takes the time to say write to their congressman about an issue that one letter actually represents X percentage of the constituents in that area who are just too lazy to write. That principle can be applied here as well, though there are about twenty other formulas which I don't remember to arrive at the percentage which X represents.

As for the go for the eyes build I don't play cookie cutter builds. I never have and I never will. If it has been published in a forum or online I'm not interested. Although I do thank you for your attempt at helping me since I'm sure that was the spirit of mention of that build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KESKI

And seriously, why cant people just speak for themselves?? Feel boneless with out the word "majority" behind you?? come on, if you want to use the word, do a poll=P

Because in an instance like this the majority speaks as one voice. We are speaking for ourselves we just happen to agree with each other on this point. That's what makes us a majority silly. Again There is no need to do a poll the evidence is readily apparent. Anyway at this point I think the mods have had enough of new threads about hte AI and would just lock a poll.

tomcruisejr · Nov 22, 2006, 01:17 AM // 01:17

ArenaNet is ok. Is your work/school/girlfriend/health ok?

KESKI · Nov 22, 2006, 01:24 AM // 01:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Str0b0

It's not a matter of gathering hard data. I don't need hard data to draw the conclusion that a simple majority doesn't like the AI. It's a matter of observation. How many threads about AI have been started? How many have been negative? Do you honestly think those threads are confined to just this board? If each board revolving around Guild Wars accounts for an average cross section of the GuildWars population, and it conceivably can and should, then you can extrapolate a majority from just reading the posts. The 95% and 5% were just arbitrary numbers to demonstrate the futility of catering to a minority market within your consumer base. Whether you see the problems or not doesn't mean they don't exist unless you subscribe to the good old ostrich theory of reality, that being if I can't see it it doesn't exist and therefore can't hurt me. What does matter, and what should provide you with even more evidence, is that a number of people have experienced these problems and have spoken out about them. So based solely on your experience you are prepared to discount all the other people who have experienced these same issues? That's a faulty argument right there. Whether you have experienced these issues personally is immaterial, they exist, they have been experienced by many other people,and they are a problem.

There is also a principle known as statistical representation. I'm sure you've heard a dumbed down version of it in which if one person actually takes the time to say write to their congressman about an issue that one letter actually represents X percentage of the constituents in that area who are just too lazy to write. That principle can be applied here as well, though there are about twenty other formulas which I don't remember to arrive at the percentage which X represents.

As for the go for the eyes build I don't play cookie cutter builds. I never have and I never will. If it has been published in a forum or online I'm not interested. Although I do thank you for your attempt at helping me since I'm sure that was the spirit of mention of that build.

Because in an instance like this the majority speaks as one voice. We are speaking for ourselves we just happen to agree with each other on this point. That's what makes us a majority silly. Again There is no need to do a poll the evidence is readily apparent. Anyway at this point I think the mods have had enough of new threads about hte AI and would just lock a poll.

True, the topic is on again and again...but is always the same people in it=P
If this is as you say, the majority, shouldnt there be more??
People vote for a reason, so no one vote more than once, and the number will be closer to the truth.

Str0b0 · Nov 22, 2006, 01:30 AM // 01:30

Once again you have to apply the whole statistical representation thing to this. This is yet another principle of business and customer service. Let's say you tick off three customers. Of those three you might get a call from one allowing you the chance to make it right. The other two will simply never come back. Unfortunately that is the way things work in just about any customer service environment, including this one. For every one of us vocally saying, "Hey this stinks!" There are likely two more who just said," This stinks I'm not going to bother to play." And went and bought FEAR instead.

Narutoscryed · Nov 22, 2006, 01:33 AM // 01:33

Quote:

like bringing down the superior absorb rune from 100k to under 5k therefore making farmers/ebayers/ect very unhappy

If it was 5k that would be fine.. unfortunatly its like 500gold... that is about the equivalent to killing 5 lvl 10 monsters....

and i really dont see the point you are trying to make by posting a harsh responce. my post was very civil and i used it to express another side of a topic.. thats what forums are for..

I really dont think my post deserved to be broken down

I posted a valid topic and you .. well you posted this..

Quote:

so what?

THIS IS NOT GOLD WARS

i used to think a rabid GIVE ME UAS PVP person was the top complainer.

my apologies to them as pro farmers win hands down

the farmers who yell the loudest?

you would swear Anet was cutting their RL income instead of game gold

Very valid statment.. you obviously are a person who is genuinly interested on the topic and are looking to help the side you choose to support emensly.. good job

leprekan · Nov 22, 2006, 02:30 AM // 02:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninna

*weekly* listing, from the same NPD group, put GW at #5 despite only 3 days of sales

NPD game sales figures for Oct 22 - Oct 28
http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/guild...ml?sid=6161500

How is number 5 impressive if it a third chapter with **cough** strong repeat customer sales?

Sid Soggybottom · Nov 22, 2006, 02:40 AM // 02:40

Number 5 among a slew of strong competition that week isnt impressive?

leprekan · Nov 22, 2006, 02:51 AM // 02:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sid Soggybottom

Number 5 among a slew of strong competition that week isnt impressive?

Not if you managed to sell a copy to all of your repeat customers it isn't. With it being a third chapter the first week will be their strongest .. unless of course they pissed off a large portion of them. I get the feeling you would debate day or night just to fluff a post count.

Sid Soggybottom · Nov 22, 2006, 02:54 AM // 02:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by leprekan

Not if you managed to sell a copy to all of your repeat customers it isn't. With it being a third chapter the first week will be their strongest .. unless of course they pissed off a large portion of them. I get the feeling you would debate day or night just to fluff a post count.

And I get the feeling that you're not capable of making a point without some jab at me personally. But I guess it's pointless to argue with you. If being number 5 isnt impressive to you, then there's no point in me convincing you otherwise.

Ninna · Nov 22, 2006, 02:58 AM // 02:58

I agree the 1st week will be strongest sales but I'm confident the NPD figures for November will show Nightfall remaining in the top 10
- probably at a higher rank than 5

Loviatar · Nov 22, 2006, 03:02 AM // 03:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Narutoscryed

Very valid statment.. you obviously are a person who is genuinly interested on the topic and are looking to help the side you choose to support emensly.. good job

what i posted was in response to your seeming to state that new players should have to work much harder to share the nicer things.

[QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Narutoscryed

Because what is the reason of playing a game that has no real replay value.. as any first time player could own 90% of the items in the game with about 10k.

that seemed a bit selfish and if you took undue offence at it i apologize

KESKI · Nov 22, 2006, 03:19 AM // 03:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Str0b0

Once again you have to apply the whole statistical representation thing to this. This is yet another principle of business and customer service. Let's say you tick off three customers. Of those three you might get a call from one allowing you the chance to make it right. The other two will simply never come back. Unfortunately that is the way things work in just about any customer service environment, including this one. For every one of us vocally saying, "Hey this stinks!" There are likely two more who just said," This stinks I'm not going to bother to play." And went and bought FEAR instead.

I see your point
But then you should be familier of the phrase "A good customer bring seven more" as well, since you know the "sale business"
I remeber there is already a poll about players happy with nf, so the happy one X7, and the not happy on X3....well I havent do the math yet, but its realy not the point

See this is what we call "business phrase" you can always find one in whatever situation you are in

Will they help you to find the truth?? maybe, but not a whole lot
Company pay research team for a good reason

Hard number tells more then words

p.s: and incase you are questioning, I know there are players ragequit GW, and yes, I know the number had increase. The only question is "are they the majority they claim to be??"

JMUN23 · Nov 22, 2006, 03:30 AM // 03:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karlos

I also agree that it's annoying to know that they are making most of these "upgrades" to AI not to make the game more fun or exciting, but to counter bots and farmers. A guildie of mine was commenting last night as we were farming greens how unfair it was that it took like 8-10 tries to get a boss to drop his green. The logic of "If you work hard you MIGHT get a reward" is very unfair. And the reason is, they are worried that if the boss/monster drops good loot every time and someone somewhere figures out how to farm him quick, they can break the economy. So, instead of trying to detect and prevent this, they make EVERYONE else work 10 times as hard to get their prizes. Simply unfair.

I agree with pretty much everything else you posted except for this paragraph. Getting a green drop shouldn't be expected and receiving one every 8 or so times isn't too bad considering how some bosses are just a few fights away from an outpost. Now let's just imagine we're in your Guild Wars wet dream. Every green would be worth pennies. That's rediculous. If a green drops everytime the boss gets killed how much could it possibly be worth? This would cause the Guild Wars economy to break down. Sure it's frustrating to not strike it big, but be realistic. You want everyone walking around with that perfect green? There's a reason they are called, "Unique" weapons. Making it hard to farm greens wasn't just ANET's plan to prevent farm bots. It was also meant for, I know it sounds lame, the challenge. That's what you're buying greens for. So you can pay someone else to take the challenge of spending a couple hours farming.

I must say that AI farming, "Improvements" are quite annoying. I don't understand ANET's logic of how we are supposed to obtain Obsidian armor. I for one am not going to buy gold off Ebay. I just can't see the point in paying into someone elses real life bank for a game you might not play much longer. I could understand the AoE nerf. An elementalist shouldn't be able to take out a field of Griffons in just a matter of minutes, but when they nerfed the Griffon spawn completely that was pushing it. Sure it was overused, but so what? I don't think making 3-5k gold every 15 minutes or so was so out of the question. Then they basically ruined farming completely by making pixels so damn smart. Now when a beast falls too low on health they run like the Italian army. That killed troll farming. I guess green farming still remains, but if Karlos gets his way those will be worthless too. I for one actually vote that greens stay somewhat difficult to farm. Otherwise it'll be all about the gold drops. Then everyone will be pissed because that's all about luck. Way to go Karlos.